EXHIBIT 43 Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 1 of 122 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS WESTERN DIVISION TERRY HOBBS, Plaintiff, v. NATALIE PASDAR, et aI., Defendants. § § § § § § § CV NO.: 4-09-CV-0008BSM DECLARATION OF JO LYNN MCCAUGHEY I, Jo Lynn McCaughey, declare as follows: 1. "My name is Jo Lynn McCaughey. I am over the age of21 and competent to give this declaration. 2. All of the information set forth herein is within my personal knowledge and is true and correct. 3. On May 6, 1993, the bodies of Steven Branch (who was nicknamed "Stevie"), Christopher Byers and Michael Moore, were discovered in the Robin Hood Hills area of West Memphis, Arkansas. The boys had been murdered. 4. I am the sister of Pam Hobbs ("Pam"). Pam is the mother of Stevie. At the time of the murders, Pam was married to Terry Hobbs ("Terry"). I have known Terry throughout his marriage to Pam (from the mid-1980s to 2004) up to the present. 5. The press and public have been very inquisitive about the murders of the boys and the subsequent trial of three teenagers for the murders. The teenagers who were tried and convicted of the murders have been called the "West Memphis 3." News organizations from allover the world have covered the story of the murders, the trials, the West Memphis 3, the families of the victims, and the effect the murders and whole ordeal has had on the families. 6. Soon after the murders, the national television show America's Most Wanted did a story on the murders of Stevie, Christopher and Michael. I have seen statements by the West Memphis Police Department that after the show aired they received a great number of phone calls and leads on the case. 7. The Geraldo Show, another national television show, also did a show on the murders, the victims, the families of the victims, and the West Memphis 3. Both Pam and Terry were on this episode of The Geraldo Show in 1994. Attached here to as Exhibit 1 is a true and correct copy of the transcript of that show. PAGEl DECLARATION OF Jo LYNN MCCAUGHEY.DOCIUNKNOWN Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 2 of 122 8. My family has received, and Pam and Terry in particular have received, a huge volume of letters and cards from people allover the world expressing their sympathy and interest in the case. Even Bill Clinton, the president of the United States, sent Pam and Terry a letter expressing his sympathy over their loss. We have also been contacted for interviews by countless news organizations, magazines and other media outlets from all over the world. Numerous websites including TV and newspaper sites, have stories on the events, on Pam and Terry and the other parents, on the victims, on the West Memphis 3, on the trials and on theories of the case. 9. I know Terry has been repeatedly contacted by the media, and he has willingly appeared on television and given interviews to the media to discuss the murders, his whereabouts on May 5 and 6, 1993, the trials of the West Memphis 3 and the effect of those events on him and his family. The press has always been interested in Terry as it relates to the case, the murders, the events, the trials and the families, and Terry has willingly talked to press and the public many times about the events. 10. The press and public interest in the victims, the victims' families, the West Memphis 3, the trials, and the events surrounding the murders has continued from 1993 to the present. 11. The cable network HBO showed two documentaries about the Murders and the trials, called Paradise Lost, Parts I and II. Those documentaries received a lot of attention and press, and made the murders, trials, victims and victims' families even more well known. 12. In 2006, Terry and Pam entered into a deal with Dimension Films to sell their story and Stevie's story to Dimension Films. It is my understanding that Dimension Films bought those rights so they could make a movie about Stevie, Pam and Terry, the murders, the West Memphis 3 and the trials. The agreement with Dimension Films also gave Dimension Films permission to use information from any book that Terry or Pam wrote. Terry and Pam each got $12,500 for signing the agreement. Representatives of Dimension Films interviewed Terry and Pam to get background for the movie. Attached as Exhibits 2 and 3 are true and correct copies of the transcripts of the interviews that Dimension Films did with Pam and Terry. I know about the contract, the rights, the money and the interviews because Terry and Pam each told me about them. 13. The public's interest in the events related to the murders went way up in 2007, when the defense team for Damien Echols filed a request for release of Damien based on new evidence. The new evidence included evidence that DNA from one hair that had been found in the ligature binding one of the victims was consistent with the hair of Terry and that DNA from another hair found at the murder scene was consistent with the hair ofTerry's friend, David Jacoby. PAGE 2 DECLARATION OF Jo LYNN MCCAUGHEY.DOCIUNKNOWN Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 3 of 122 14. Other new evidence was provided by me. I was at Pam and Terry's house on May 6, 1993. I personally saw Terry wash clothes, bed linens and curtains at an odd hour. It was very strange to me that he would do all of that laundry at such a horrible time. It was also strange that he was not just washing the dirty laundry, but was also taking clothes out of the dresser drawers and washing those, too. It was my opinion that there was no other reason or pressing need that I am aware of for Terry to do that laundry at that time other than to hide evidence of the crimes. 15. Also in 2003, I was with Pam when we found numerous knives in Terry's nightstand. I showed the knives to my father, Jackie Hicks, Sr. and he recognized one of the knives as a pocketknife he had given to Stevie that Stevie always had with him. Pam had been surprised that the knife was not found with Stevie's body. When I showed the knife to my father and told him that Terry had it, my father was devastated. I was again immediately concerned that Terry was somehow involved in the murders. 16. Terry also made comments about the murders that made me uncomfortable and made me question his involvement. In 2003 or 2004, Terry asked me if I felt like he had murdered Stevie. I asked him why he was questioning me like that. He said he wanted to know. I told him that if he asked me then I was going to tell him what I truly felt. I told him I believed he was involved in Stevie's murder either directly or indirectly. He told me that hurt his feelings. Then we were talking about whether Christopher Byers had been mutilated, and Terry said the pathologist had said the cut was so precise that if it wasn't done by a surgeon perhaps it was done by a jeweler. My husband is a jeweler, so I said that theory did not quite fit. I looked at him, and Terry then said, something like, "You know I've got experience from working in a slaughterhouse, don't you?" 17. In May of 2007, investigators for the West Memphis 3 interviewed me and I told them about the laundry, the knife and other concerns I had about Terry. 18. On or about June 19,2007 I met with the West Memphis Police Department for a formal interview about my concerns about Terry and whether he was involved in the murder of Stevie and the other little boys. I believe that my interview has been public and available for people and the press to access since that time. A true and copy of that interview is attached hereto as Exhibit 4. 19. I told the West Memphis Police Department on or about June 19, 2007 about my concerns and suspicions about Terry Hobbs and whether he was involved in the murder of Stevie and the other little boys. 20. In July and August of 2007, Pam gave interviews to the press and in those interviews she stated that she believed that Terry was involved in the murders. Also in those interviews, Pam discussed the fact that Terry waited until 9 p.m. to tell her that Stevie was missing, the discovery of the pocketknife in Terry's things, and the chronology of events on May 5, 1993. PAGE 3 DECLARATION OF Jo LYNN MCCAUGHEY.DOCIUNKNOWN Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 4 of 122 21. Also in June of 2007, the West Memphis police interviewed Terry. The West Memphis Police Department made that interview of Terry available to the public and press. There were many newspaper reports following Terry's interview which discuss the fact that the West Memphis police had interviewed Terry. Additionally, the video of the interview of Terry was posted on the Internet and can be easily located by doing a Google search of Terry Hobbs and the West Memphis Police. 22. In the 2007 police interview, Terry claims he and Pam saw a suspicious black man on May 6, 1993. At no time since the murders have Terry or Pam ever mentioned to me seeing a black man on May 5 or May 6, 1993. 23. In October 2007, I gave an interview to the press in which I stated, "Terry Hobbs had the motive. Terry Hobbs is the one suspected of murder and the wounds that were inflicted on my nephew where turtles bit his face. No knives and no weapons were used." 24. In sum, I have informed Terry, I have informed the newspapers (in October of 2007), I have informed the West Memphis 3 investigators (in May of 2007) and I informed the West Memphis Police Department (in June of 2007) that I believe that it is possible that Terry was involved in the murders of Stevie and the other little boys. 25. Damien Echols' lawyers and the West Memphis 3 spread the word out in the press and the news about this new evidence - the DNA, the laundry, the knife, and the fact that the police had interviewed Terry among other things - and about their filing to get Damien Echols out of prison or a new trial. Echols' defense team held a big press conference in late October of 2007, on the new evidence and the filing and it was covered by press from allover the country. 26. Many newspapers carried the story of the new evidence, of the police interviews of Terry, of Damien Echols' court filing, of the DNA findings, and of the suspicions of whether Terry was involved in the murders. All of the new evidence and Echols' filing, starting in July of 2007, caused an intense new wave of publicity on the murders, the trials, the West Memphis 3, and, of course, Terry Hobbs. 27. My family and I personally witnessed all this attention and press because I saw it, and we got requests for interviews from the press, news organizations and others regarding the new evidence and the filing. 28. Starting in approximately July 2007, Terry was even more in the spotlight than before because he was so involved in the new evidence - the DNA which was consistent with him and his friend, his possession of Stevie's prized knife, doing the laundry at odd hours and being interviewed by the West Memphis police. 29. Terry hired a spokesman to talk to the press. The spokesperson gave interviews to a number of news organizations and willingly talked to them about Terry and PAGE 4 DECLARATION OF Jo LYNN MCCAUGHEY.DOCIUNKNOWN Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 5 of 122 , ' the murders. Numerous articles ran regarding his spokesperson's conversations with the press in which he addressed Terry's possible involvement in the murders based on the new evidence and on the Damien Echols' filing and on the information put forward by the Echols team. The spokesman was Ross Sampson. Ross Sampson was the entertainment lawyer that negotiated an agreement in which Terry and Pam sold the rights to their story to Dimension Films. 30. Also around that time, Terry gave interviews to media where he himself talked about the new evidence and whether he was involved in the murders. I saw and read many of these articles, and Terry said that the West Memphis 3 defense team had ruined his reputation by bringing forward all of the new evidence. On many occasions prior to July 2007, Terry has told many people that my family has ruined his reputation because we believe he was involved in the murders. I've also seen statements from Terry where he says the West Memphis 3 defense team has ruined his reputation and life. 31. I have a copy of a book handwritten by Terry Hobbs which I found in some of Pam's things. I read it. It is about the murders, the events, the trials, his whereabouts on the night in question and how he has been affected by all the events. The book is strange in that Terry always refers to Stevie as "the boy," not by name. 32. Terry has very bad morals. He has behaved very badly to his family and he is a mean person. Terry has a very bad reputation in the community. Some of the reasons that I think so little of Terry Hobbs' reputation and moral character are listed below. 33. Terry has repeatedly sexually molested his daughter, Amanda. Not long before Stevie's death, when Amanda was 4 years old, Amanda told me that Terry had put his fmger into her "booty." 34. I told Pam what Amanda had told me. Pam took Amanda to the hospital and the doctor confirmed that there had been penetration. 35. Throughout the years, Amanda has repeatedly accused Terry of sexual abuse. In approximately 2002, Amanda told me that Terry had grabbed her breasts. On one occasion Amanda called me at 3 AM and asked me to come and get her in Paris, Tennessee and take her away from Terry. She refused to go back home to Terry. I told her that I was 2 hours away and thilt we should get her mom, Pam, to go and get her. She said okay, and that she wanted me to meet her and Pam halfway. So Pam went and got Amanda and I met them halfway. Amanda came with me to Blytheville and refused to go back to Terry in Memphis. I called the Tennessee government and told them that Amanda had told me that Terry had sexually molested her. Tennessee sent an agency to investigate the matter. They interviewed Amanda and made a report. PAGE 5 DECLARATION OF Jo LYNN MCCAUGHEY.DOCIUNKNOWN Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 6 of 122 36. Terry is also a known drug user. Pam ultimately decided to leave Terry and move from Memphis to Blytheville, Arkansas. Terry tried to take Stevie's things from Pam. I had moved to a bigger house so Pam and Amanda could stay with me and my husband. I went to Memphis with Pam to pack her things. We took the police with us so Terry could not hurt anyone. When we got there, Terry had taken all of Stevie's belongings and locked them up in the trunk of his car. He lied to the police and told the police that he did not have Stevie's belongings. I told the police that Stevie's belongings were probably in the trunk of his car. The police asked Terry to go open up the trunk of his car. Before we could get out to the car, Amanda had pulled out Terry's drug paraphernalia from where he hid it and showed it to the police. The police made Terry open the trunk of his car, and when he did, he could see that all of Stevie's things were in the trunk. The police then arrested Terry. I know that Terry has been involved in drugs. He has used marijuana, cocaine and crystal methamphetamine. 37. Later, when Amanda was older, she again told me that Terry had sexually abused her and that he was physically abusive to her when she was pregnant. She said that Terry slammed her into a sink, causing the loss of the pregnancy. 38. I am aware that Terry had molested a neighbor of his many years earlier; the neighbor's name was Mildred French, and while Mildred was in the shower Terry broke in, went in her bathroom, and grabbed her breasts. 39. Terry, I believe, physically abused his wife, Pam, and he has shot my brother with a gun, which ultimately resulted in my brother's death. In 1997, Terry and Pam had an argument in which Terry had hit Pam in the face and Pam called the family to come help her. My brother, Jackie Hicks, Jr., got into a fight with Terry when they got to Pam's house (Terry was supposed to have left) and Terry shot my brother in the abdomen in front of my parents. My brother was seriously injured, and had to have a large number of surgeries as a result. My brother died in approximately February of 2006 from complications with one of those surgeries. 40. Terry is a violent individual who is always armed. Terry always had guns around. Also, it seemed like he traded guns with other people a lot. In fact, it was very strange, but Terry would frequently obtain a gun, take it somewhere and later, he wouldn't have the old gun, but he would have a new, different gun. 41. Terry has squandered the charity the public gave to Stevie's family. People from all over the country have sent money and gifts to Pam and Terry to help them take care of their family in the time of crisis. The money that has come in has been squandered by Terry. Terry has literally used thousands of dollars given by sympathetic people for his own interests. 42. Terry physically abused Stevie when they were alone. Terry had a bad relationship with Stevie. He would punish Stevie by hitting him with a belt until he drew blood. Terry would also punish Stevie by locking him in a closet. One time when Stevie was staying with my parents and he was potty training, he had a PAGE 6 DECLARATION OF Jo LYNN McCAUGHEY.DOCIUNKNOWN Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 7 of 122 ...~ \ ~ r little bit of an accident. He got terrified and went and hid. My mother, Marie Hicks, and I looked everywhere and could not fmd Stevie until we went in my mother's room. She had a box of clothes in her closet and his foot fell out of the box. When we pulled Stevie out he was hot and sweaty and we asked him what was wrong. Stevie siad "Daddy Terry's going to whip me, he's going to whip me." Stevie was terrified. 43. Terry did not act responsibly following Stevie's death. Terry did not seem to mourn the loss of Stevie. Instead he seemed to immediately move on. He left my sister Pam for approximately 2 weeks and moved away with another woman. 44. Terry has stolen from his own family. Terry's family had a family business where they owned restaurants. Terry used to work for the family business, but his father kicked him out of the business because he caught Terry stealing money from the business. 45. My family has taken action because of Terry's bad reputation. My family had Terry's name removed from the gravestone at Stevie's grave. We did this based on Terry's character and reputation. We did not want Terry Hobbs associated with the memory of Stevie because of all the horrible things he has done to my family, and the horrible way that he treated Stevie. 46. Terry has promised Pam that if he wins this case he will pay her $50,000 immediately. He has told her that he plans to make $250 million from winning this case." I declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct and that this declaration was executed in Mississippi County, Arkansas. ! Dated: Lff!~ c20/ ~dO '1 PAGE 7 DECLARATION OF Jo LYNN MCCAUGHEy.DOCIUNKNOWN Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 8 of 122 'UvlCtlUV 1J1lVVV Copyright 1994 Investigative News Group GERALD0 SHOW: GERALDO (4:00 PM ET) March 16, 1994, Wednesday 2:50PM LENGTH: 7258 words ""-6-'" "-" .... -, -- m )( ::t m =i HEADLINE: KlDS WHO KILL: DID THE DEVIL MAKE THEM DO IT? PAM AND TERRY HOBBS, PARENTS OF MURDERED ARKANSAS CHILD; JESSIE MISSKELLY, FATHER OF CONVICTED TEEN MURDERER; DR. HERBERT NIEBURG; JACK LEVIN; JACK ROPER; MARCOS QUINONES; ADOLESCENT SATANISM ANCHORS: Geraldo Rivera BODY: HOST: Geraldo Rivera EXECUTIVE PRODUCER: Martin M. Bennan KIDS WHO KILL: DID THE DEVIL MAKE THEM DO IT? GERALDa RIVERA: art May 5th, 1993, three eight-year-old boys were brutally murdered in a small town in eastern Arkansas. There is evidence the killings may have been part of a Satanic ritual. But much about this awful case remains unclear. Today, we'll try to solve the remaining puzzle with the cooperation of experts and family members from both the young victims' side and the side of the teen-aged accused. Pam and Terry are the parents of Stevie Hobbs; Stevie, one of the eight-year-old boys brutally murdered. Jackie is the victim's grandfather. I lmow it's difficult, Pam, but can you describe the wounds on Stevie's body? Mrs. PAM HOBBS (Son Murdered By Alleged Satanic Teens): The left side of his face was cut and mutilated. He was tied hand and foot... (Photo of Steven Hicks) htt! lllahan.8k.com/wm3/geraldo.html \ ..._j.' ,15/2009 Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 9 of 122 ~ ....... s. HOBBS: (Voiceover) ...and he had injuries to his head whelc they had--his brain had scattered when they hit him. RIVERA: Essentially, he was beaten to death? Mrs. I-IOBBS: Mm-hmm. RIVERA: Tell us your reaction, Terry, when you heard what had happened to your stepson. Mr. TERRY HOBBS (Stepson Murdered By Alleged Satanic Teens): I don't know. I just--I couldn't believe it. We've been--went into shock-­ may be in shock now. And I still can't believe it. We hadn't--it's like a long nightmare that you keep waking--waiting to wake up from. And we're here in the middle of it. . RIVERA: Joining us via satellite from West Memphis, Arkansas, is the father of one of the three teen-aged accused. Actually his son has already been convicted of murdering the three eight-year-olds. This is Jess--Jessie Misskelley Sr. He's joined by some supporters, you can see, in the background. Before I talk to that side and this--much more deeply about what happened, you should know that this story of the murders of the three young boys has taken many bizarre twists and turns. Indeed, new revelations are emerging every single day. Our team visited West Memphis, Arkansas, to investigate_ Here's the story of the three dead young men. (Begin investigative report; narration by Geraldo Rivera) RIVERA: Reminiscing over children's photos brings joy to most families. But in the house of Marie Hicks and her daughter, Pam Hobbs, it is a painful and torturous event. (Photograph of Steven Hicks) RIVERA: (Voiceover) Pam's eight-year-old son, Steven, was sexually molested and brutally murdered... (Photos of Michael Moore and Christopher Byers) RIVERA: (Voiceover) ...along with two other eight-year-old boys, Michael Moore and Christopher Byers. It happened in West Memphis, Arkansas, on May 5th, 1993. Christopher had also been castrated. (Photos of Jessie Misskelley Jr., Damian Echols, and Jason Baldwin) RIVERA: (Voiceover) Charged in the brutal murders are three local teen-agers; Jessie Misskelley Jr., 18; Damian Echols, 18; and Jason .• htt] l1lahan.8kccun/wrri3/geraldo.html ' · \ .. ;:, l] ;:;! . : ! \,,--.// :, : l ;'.:: '\1\;-, . !.••. ' .. : '. ". ! "'. '.. \ • ;:~ Oil •.s j ., ;5-/:2'009 ',-../ Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 10 of 122 ~ ""5'" ..J V.1 "-'"I' _<dwin, just 16. The parents of one of the murdered boys yellea at Damian on his way to a court appearance. Unidentified Man #1: Faggot! What you know about the faggots? RIVERA: Adding to the parents' horrors... (Newspaper headline reads, "Misskelley Friend Says They Attended Cult Event") RIVERA: (Voiceover) ...were reports that the killers had participated in devil worship. (Footage of Jessie Misskelley Jr. in police custody) RIVERA: (Voiceover) On Februmy 4th, Jessie Misskelley Jr. was found guilty of the murders. He was sentenced to life in prison plus 40 years. The trials of Damian Echols and Jason Baldwin are scheduled for late February. (The Commercial Appeal newspaper headline reads, "Cult Experts Gave Warning in 1992") RIVERA: (Voiceover) In June oflast year, 1993, the Memphis Commercial Appeal reported that cult experts had warned West Memphis officials, back in 1992, that Satanic cult activities were present in the community. (Photos; Satanic grafitti on wall) RIVERA: (Voiceover) One of the three defendants told West Memphis police that local cult activities included eating dogs and participating in sex orgies. Acquaintances of Damian Echols told reporters that Echols customarily wore black, killed cats and worshipped the devil. (Footage of Damian Echols in police custody) RIVERA: Stephanie Dollar, a West Memphis resident, said there has long been talk about cult activities in West Memphis. Ms. STEPHANIE DOLLAR (West Memphis, Arkansas, Resident): Yeah. It's just, I mean, all the talk about it. I mean, the symbols that you see wrote everywhere--I mean, which it could be just kids writing things. I don't know. I mean--but there's just too much talk about it for it not to be true. (Footage of the West Memphis trailer park) RIVERA: (Voiceover) Jessie Misskelley Jr., like his two co-defendants, lived in a rundown trailer park in the West Memphis area. The teen­ ager's room revealed nothing extraordinary. http: illahan.8k.coIri/wm:3/geraldo:htinl " ...--~' ""'\._)'.:.: '''l::'.~ "i"'.;:' :.:.": ;', ll'~ ;5/2009 -",,-' -"r; Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 11 of 122 (Interior of Jessie Misskelley Jr.'s bedroom shown) RIVERA: (Voiceover) Most of the pictures and posters were fairly typical for an 18-year-old boy's room. Although a jury found his son guilty, Jessie Misskelley Sr. steadfastly professes his son's innocence. Mr. JESSIE MISSKELLEY Sr. (Son Convicted Of Murder): I've got 15,20 people that saw him out here in this trailer park that day up until 7:30. Then he went to Dysart and he saw the wrestle. There's no way he could have been up there to kill those boys. He was out here in this trailer park because they have witnesses to prove that he was here. But the police--they say he was not here. They got up there and lied. Jessie was not in on it because--said he ate the hind leg of a dog? Jessie won't even eat fried chicken. What are you talking about? RIVERA: Jessie Sr.'s story is supported by 15-year-old Susie Brewer, Jessie Jr.'s girl friend. Miss SUSIE BREWER (Jessie Junior's Girl Friend): I think they're stupid. I don't think he did it. I just tell him I still love him and we're all behind him. Damian's weird looking and--and Jason, he's just quiet. RIVERA: Police believe the murders occurred in a small grove known by the locals as Robin Hood Woods. It's a popular spot for teen-age beer drinking and parties. Based on police and news reports, we have recreated the boys' final moments. (Partial re-enactment shown during narration) RIVERA: (Voiceover) Late afternoon on May 5th, 1993, the boys entered the woods. One was riding a girls' bike, the other a boys' bike, the third child had a skateboard. It is believed the boys spent some time roaming and playing in the woods. At some point, however, after 6:00 PM, the three children and their assailants met. The following day, May 6th, the police spotted a young boy's sneaker and a Cub Scout hat floating in a small creek. The bodies of the three boys were found just yards away. (End investigative report) RIVERA: Pam, can you tell us what happened that afternoon? What happened to your son? What was he usually doing at that time? Mrs. HOBBS: After school, Michael had come over and asked could Stevie go to his house and play. At first 1... RIVERA: Michael Moore, one of the three victims, yeah. Mrs. HOBBS: Sorry? Yeah. To Michael Moore's house, the other boy. And at first, I told him no. And he kept begging so I went ahead and told him that he could go, and I gave him a time to be home. I told him to be home by 4:30, that if he wasn't home, he would be grounded. And I had to go to work that night. And I left for work around 4:55 and he still wasn't at home. So I went on to work and my husband started ..., ,: http:, dlahan.8k.coful'Wm3/geraldo.html , '. .. '. ~::""' '.,~j . ; {)r~t<~:~·..;~ ..... t.;.";,'; ':' (J512009 Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 12 of 122 ~_..uching for him. And we searched all night and just--it come Up me next day that he was dead. RIVERA: Who told you that they found his body? Mrs. HOBBS: My husband and I went to the school to check, to tell them that we hadn't found the boys. And there, a lady said, I heard they just found three boys.' So we went to the park where they had found them at, and I run up. They already had the police line out and everything, and I run up, and someone said that it was Stevie, that it was the boys: RIVERA: Grandpa Jackie, do you believe this was a--a devil-worship cult? Do you believe this was a Satanic organization?--or these boys were in some way connected? And how do you respond to that? Mr. JACKIE HICKS (Grandson Murdered By Alleged Satanic Teens): Yes, I definitely believe that it was. At the time of the murders, Satanic was a world of its own. It--it was something that wasn't even in my mind. But as time progressed and goes on, and we've learned a little more, studied a little more and went along with it; it all points, from what we've read and studied--yes, it was a Satanic-type murder. RIVERA: What's your reaction? I know you folks are nervous about being on TV. What's your reaction to what happened to your grandson? Mr. HICKS: Well he--him and a couple ofthe boys were just beautifullittle boys, a-playing. Those little boys still believed in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunnies. (Photo of Steven Hicks) Mr. HICKS: (Voiceover) They were playing in the woods, called Robin Hood Park where all the neighborhood kids play at. And evidently, they run up onto something. And those boys were cruelly beaten to death. They were beaten to death. I saw my grandson at the funeral home before he was tal(en out of a body bag, just like he came back from the coroner. And it was pitiful. RIVERA: Tell us. Help us understand that. What did they do to him? Mr. HICKS: What did they do to him? His jaw was completely tore loose from his face. His eye was busted in the socket. His chest and all was kicked and stomped. His face was kicked and stomped--just pitiful, pitiful. It's something that a decent human being wouldn't even do to a live dog, let alone a human being. RIVERA: Did a feeling of rage swell up in you? Mr. HICKS: Well, naturally, you know, the feeling of rage swollen up, yes, it's--it's swollen up. Yeah, it did. RIVERA: Did you want to go out and find his murderers yourself? ;"httt~ ,lilahan.8k.com/Wni3/geraldo:html";· .,......-----_: ~) ;~. , :: ;: i.:' ··i.f"i~1:;~·:~ :: . '(' !5/2009 '-......J Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 13 of 122 Mr. HICKS: Naturally, you know that, too. Yes, I did want to go out and find these murderers myself at the time. RIVERA: Do you believe that the right teen-ager was convicted? Mr. HICKS: Yes, I do. RIVERA: Jessie Misskelley Sr. can you hear me? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: Yes, sir. RIVERA: You still, despite the fact that a jury has convicted your son and sentenced him to life plus 40 years, you believe him to be innocent? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: Yes, sir, I sure do. RIVERA: Isn't it a fact that Jessie Misskelley Jr. was a member of one of these Satanic cults? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: No, he was not. RIVERA: He didn't attend meetings? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: No, he did not. RIVERA: There was testimony to that effect at the trial. Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: That's a lie. RIVERA: Do you think everyone is lying about your son? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: Yes, I do. RIVERA: And you believe that he had an alibi? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: I know he did. RIVERA: Then why did he make a 32-minute confession to the cops? httt,,;illahan.8k.corilIWm3/geraldo.htrriiji'" ,_.'- -U :~~{~(.l5~?~-'.:;;.:;;_~· ,,':,''[: ":.{ 105/2009 " ....-/" Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 14 of 122 Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: Because they hounded him, they cussed him, they threatened him. And he just made a statement to get him off his back. RIVERA: Terry, you want to say something to Mr. Misskelley Sr.? Mr. HOBBS: I have a lot to say to that man. But I can--I don't want to talk to him. I don't appreciate the actions of your son. He come out of your home, out of your raisings. And, no, 1... Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: Sir--but my son did not do it. Mr. HOBBS: He said he did. Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: But he--he's mistaken. He--they made him say that. Mr. HOBBS: Hehad a chance to tell the whole world he didn't do it. And he didn't. Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: What did he say? Mr. HOBBS: He didn't. Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: We tried. Mr. HOBBS: He didn't. He had a chance. Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: Well, he tried, but they wouldn't let him. RIVERA: Paul Morrison is a television reporter who got so close to this case that he became almost obsessed with it; so much so that he was forced to quit his job in a Memphis television station. - Paul, what about the Satanic angle here? Were these boys ritually slaughtered? Mr. PAUL MORRISON (TV Reporter Fired For Obsession With Satanic Case): So far, we've heard nothing from the police certainly. They did not establish motive in the killings. As you know, you don't need to establish motive for a conviction, but publicly, there's been no mention that the motive of these killings was sa--a--cult-related. RIVERA: What else could it have been? .. http. .illahan.8k.c6fu!WIn3/geraldo.html ,~-_... \0 ;.f;\J~/~: :", ! '" ':" ~.: ~ ~. ' ";' .; p -; .:. : ..( iSI2009 ....._,J Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 15 of 122 Mr. MORRISON: I think in--when you look at a case like this, some of the questions that might go through your mind would be child-sexual abuse or if--ifthe motivator was indeed sexual as opposed to cult-related. 1--1 cannot say for sure it was or it wasn't. I do know this much, as you've already indicated, I'm convinced there was a cult of some fOmi or fashion alive and well in West Memphis, Arkansas. RIVERA: Isn't it a fact that aside from the brutal beating that they administered to these three eight-year-olds, that they also castrated one of the boys? Mr. MORRISON: Christopher Byers' sexual organs were rather artfully removed. To my lmowledge, they've never been found. RlVERA: Picture this happening in your town. Three eight-year-old boys, wonderful, innocent, Santa Claus-believing, eight-year-old boys, brutally beaten to death, hacked and mutilated. Later, three teen-agers arrested, one of them already convicted, the trials of two others to take place. What impact would it have in your community--particularly if you learned that there was possibly a Satanic cult that these teen-agers belonged to? WHEN KIDS KILL KIDS: DID THE DEVIL MAKE THEM DO IT? the focus of this edition ofGERALDO. (Theme music and applause) (Announcements) (Theme music and applause) RlVERA: ....KlLL KIDS: DID THE DEVIL MAKE THEM DO IT? I want to go back to West Memphis, Arkansas, back to Jessie Misskelley Sr., surrounded as you can see by other supporters and family members of the--of the youngster--17 years old at the time of the crime, now 18 years old and sentenced to life plus 40 years. Mr. Misskelley Sr., we have one of the victims' grandfathers here. He's a man, I think, who knows you. Jackie, do you want to say something to Jessie? Mr. HICKS: Yes, Mr. Misskelley, I didn't get a chance to say anything to you after the trial. But what I say--and I'm talking personally to you. I see a re--repeat--a repeat of a beer-drinking--all I see is--it--what I'm trying to say is it's his raising. I feel sorrier for· him than I do for you. You've never done nothing for him. And that's all he ever lmew is what he was done. And brother, that's your fault as much as it's his. (Applause) RIVERA: Mr. Misskelley, do you want to respond? http .a.Ilahan.8k.com/wm3/geraldo.html·· '-_/ ~j .,. f·.:-:- ~:).j/~.: t. )5/2009' .--..--- Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 16 of 122 Iv1.l. MISSKELLEY Sr.: No. They can run me down all they want 1.0. But I don't care what they say. Just leave me the hell alone. RIVERA: But, Mr. Misskelley, isn't it possible, now that your son is convicted, can't you look at this thing a little more objectively?-­ convicted after a confession. Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: A confession... RIVERA: Isn't it possible that he went astray some place? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: No. RIVERA: Something went wrong with your son? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: No. He was coerced in making that--station. He was kind of scared. He had the mind ofa seven, eight-year-old, and he was scared. And he told them anything they could--he could think ofto get them off his back. (Photo of Jessie Misskelley, Jr.) RIVERA: (Voiceover) And the woman--I believe, Paul, her name was Hutcheson? Mr. MORRISON: Victoria Hutcheson. RIVERA: Who--who testified, Jessie, that your son was at one of these cult meetings--at least one? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: She lied. RIVERA: Why would she lie? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: That I don't lrnow. RIVERA: Paul, how convincing was her testimony? Mr. MORRISON: It was rather brief but it--she indicated that she had attended what appeared from the testimony to have been a--a meeting-­ a Satanic ritual called an Esbat, which in those terms, is more or less a monthly or regular business meeting. RIVERA: Jessie, is your son going to testify against the other two boys? Against--what's his name?--Damian and Jason? httI\ dlahan.8kcom/wm3/geraldo.html ..',. ,,--... ' ·;:U:· ,;" .....,..~, !.,:;-.,>,:":, ,. .01' .: .... . "1. 15/2009 ........---" Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 17 of 122 IV.l1'. MISSKELLEY Sr.: That I don't know. RlVERA: Let me introduce our experts because I want to broaden this beyond West Memphis, to talk more about this whole, very controversial issue of Satanic cults and devil worship. Whenever this is mentioned in polite society, people like to bury their head under the pillow and--and refuse to believe that it exists. And very often, reporters, like Paul Morrison, get an awful lot of heat for staying with these stories. I know when we did our devil worship special, how very controversial that was. But we still stand by that one as well as what you're hearing today. OK. Dr. Herbert Nieburg, a man who specializes in adolescent Satanism among many other things. He has been counseling victims and ex­ cult members for years. Jack Roper is one of the nation's leading authors and experts on Satanic cults. Our old friend, Jack Levin, renowned, certainly well-known professor ofcriminology at Boston's Northeastern University, a man who says Satanism is used as a cop-out and an excuse by troubled, violent teen-agers. And finally, a man who knows it from the--from the streets, Marcos Quinones. He's an officer with the good old NYPD, New York City Police Department. He says that more Satanic murders occur than we know about. These four experts, joined by our--ou;r bereaved relatives. On both sides, they are saddened. We'll continue this discussion of WHEN KIDS KILL KIDS: DID THE DEVIL MAKE THEM DO IT; right after this brief intermission. (Photos of Satanic grafitti) (Theme music and applause) (Announcements) (Theme music and applause) RIVERA: WHEN KIDS KILL KIDS: DID THE DEVIL MAKE THEM DO IT? Our specific focus, this horrible triple homicide just west of Memphis on the Arkansas side of the river. Yes? Unidentified Man #2: With the cult, I know that there's a history of hallucinogenic use, and was there any such, I guess, tie with that in this murder? Mr. MORRISON: During Jessie's trial he indicated, or the--the testimony indicated, that he had had some experience.with drugs. I do not know the extent of it. It didn't--and the other two, we--we do not know yet because, basically, the case file is sealed. RIVERA: Jessie? Jessie Sr., was your son a drug user? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: No. Not especially. He'smoked a little marijuana every once in awhile. http., allahan.8k.cori'i1Wm3/geraldo.html, ". L} O'~{>i}t:: • 'J . ~ .. ' . :'i 15/2009 ".-.-/ Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 18 of 122 .I, u5'"' .l.L V~ "",-r RIVERA: Dh-huh. Was he a big boozer? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: No. Not a big boozer. He dr--he did drink: whiskey though. RIVERA: Dh-huh. Unidentified Woman #1: Do you have any more children? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: Yeah. RIVERA: Pam? Mrs. HOBBS: Yes. A little girl. RIVERA: How old is she? Mrs. HOBBS: She just turned five. RIVERA: Does she have any understanding of what happened to her brother? Mrs. HOBBS: No, she doesn't understand it. She misses her brother but she doesn't understand. She knows he's gone and she says she knows he's in heaven. But to really understand it, no she don't. Unidentified Woman #2: Eli. I would like to know what type ofperson it is that gets involved with cults? RIVERA: 1--1 don't know. Dr. Nieburg, I want to save you for the bigger question of whether you think: this is Satanic-related. I want to ask Jack Roper that question. Is there a--is there a typical kid who gets involved? Mr. JACK ROPER (Satanic Cult Expert): I think you have to look at--just look at the overall view. It can be from all educational perspectives, from those that are real unintelligent to those that are extremely intelligent--valedictorians: So we have to look at where they're coming from, their--their--their background of the family, how the family treats them, have they been abused. So there's a lot of factors you have to consider with each... RIVERA: One of the defendants stylized himself Damian after the character in "The Omen." It's not his given name, but he calls himself Damian. Is that an indicator of anything to you? htt~ ,allahan.8k.com/Wm3/geraldo.html'" 0: ·...:~,h!;~~··: .: ( 6/2009, ...,~; Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 19 of 122 ~ _. ROPER: Well, Damian... (Photo of Damian Echols) Mr. ROPER: (Voiceover) There's also a well-known church--there's a Satanic organization and the leader ofthat, his AKA is also Damian. I won't bring up his name. RIVERA: What's the dagger you're holding? (Close-up of dagger) Mr. ROPER: Well, I want to point out that this kind of stuff is available. You can go to warehouses. There are cult warehouses in the country where you can buy this kind of stuff. RIVERA: See the skull atop with the rubies? OK. What else? Mr. ROPER: And also now there are--there are cases, active cases, and--and dismissed cases out there. But this is one case ofan individual. I have his Satanic diary, his book of shadows. And this individual was--sent threatening letters to President Carter. The US Circuit--Secret Service was involved with this case. I also have another one where an individual, who is in prison right now in Massachusetts, he sent me.a letter to get some information on Satanism. But he was also, according to the Atlanta Journal Constitution, said here that he was involved with a decapitation, a killing and a mutilation. RIVERA: A decap--oh, brother. Mr. ROPER: Yes. RIVERA: Let me--let me go to Dr. Nieburg. Does what happened in West Memphis smack of Satanism to you? Dr. HERBERT NIEBURG (Ph.D., Specializes In Adolescent Satanism): It's a crime that's associated with Satanism. This is not a typical Satanic crime. Typical Satanic murder, one would expect, is part of a ritual. You would expect a--an altar. You would expect certain kinds of ritualistic functions to have been performed. You would expect vestments. You would expect lots of other signs. I think this is a very tragic case, one that's not terribly atypical or unusual. I think this is a murder that's perpetrated by some very disturbed young men. And 1--1 agree totally with--with Dr. Levin, that--that these cases are where somebody takes up the identity and wants to be known as a Satanist to condone, to justify what they're doing, which really, antecedes--goes way back before anything about Satan. These are disturbed kids who are murderers. This was a mens rea, a criminal mind, using Satanism as a--as an excuse. RIVERA: Jack? httl\ )lllahan.8k.com/Wni3/geraldo.html: r:.':·.: '._~-_.' I , . \...-/ .: !{:.:rd·t:·: : ( .15/2009 ~,~.-",,' Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 20 of 122 Mr. JACK LEVIN (Criminology Expert): Yeah, I think that's a very good point. And you don't need Satanism as an excuse. There are plenty ofothers. You can blame pornography, you can blame drugs or alcohol or maybe even a bad childhood. But Satanism is particularly easy in tenns of a justification because it ritualizes. And, you know, even something as hideous as--as rape and murder, can seem wonderful when you envelope it in this--this mystery of the Satanic ritual. Also... RlVERA: I neglected to mention the boys were also--two of the boys were also raped... Mr. LEVIN: That's right. RIVERA: ...by these perpetrators. Mr. LEVIN: And--and--I mean, you know, it's interesting that Satan himself is seen as a--as a powerful figure. And, you know, as Dr. Nieburg points out, these kids probably were very marginal. They probably weren't getting along very well at home, not doing well at school, dropouts, spiritually as well as physically, and felt very, very powerless. Maybe 20 years ago, they would have stolen hub caps. But today in this age of decline of moral responsibility, you know, they'll do a lot worse than that. RIVERA: Where the hell did they get the idea, though, to do something this brutal? Mr. LEVIN: You can get the idea in a lot of places nowadays. You can get it in comic books. You can get it by watching television. You can get it from your friends. ,You can get it from--from attending a meeting of strangers. But I don't think it's the point that Satan per se is the problem. I think--let me point out, in Clifton, New Jersey, not long ago, three guys--teen-agers--brutally strangled their buddy while they recited Hail Marys. And--and--and Jeffrey Lundgren killed five people in 1989. He thought he was a prophet. He talked to--he land oflike had a direct line to God, he thought. He--this was a radical offshoot ofthe Monnon church. It isn't MOlmonism that we blame. And clearly, we don't blame the Catholic church either. We shouldn't. The point is that religion, and also the occult, can be used for good or evil. In this case, it's used to justifY something horrific. RIVERA: Your reaction to the father's alibi? The father saying his son... Mr. LEVIN: Well, I--you know, I'm going to take issue with everybody here. I have to because, you know, there are a lot of victims of this brutal kind of multiple murder besides just the three eight-year-old boys. Yeah, I'll tell you who else gets victimized. The family of the--as you can see--of--of Stevie and the other boys who were brutally murdered. And, you know, sometimes it's also the family of the perpetrator, who tries to support and protect his youngster. He may know in his heart that his son is guilty, but, you know, he also knows that everybody will blame him for having created a monster, whether he deserves it or not. So maybe we should be a little bit more tolerant and withhold judgement unless we understand all of the facts of the case. Dr. NIEBURG: Jack, that's a point, though, because nobody--what we forget is that you can lead somebody down a path. The ultimate choice .httI( )tllahan.8k.coril/w:rn3Ygeraldo.html '_." . J \0 .., ) l~/;'~'G :".~ , I .' ";. . )5/2;009 . ..../ Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 21 of 122 au...1 decision--the ultimate responsibility for this murder was not 1HS father. This boy chose to do that, regardless of what those other antecedent causes are. Mr. LEVIN: Exactly. Let's blame the killers... Dr. NIEBURG: Exactly. Mr. LEVIN: ...for the crime. Mr. NIEBURG: Right. (Applause) RIVERA: All right. We have a reporter standing by now in Arkansas, wh0 will give us the latest on what's going on in the case. Jim Taylor, are you there? Mr. JIM TAYLOR (KAIT Reporter, Jonesburo, Arkansas: (By Telephone) Yes, I am, Geraldo. RIVERA: OK. Let me take a break. We'll come to Jim Taylor from KAIT injust a minute. Stay tuned. An update on the triple homicide, the trial going on right now. (Theme music and applause) (Announcements) (Theme music and applause) RIVERA: WHEN KIDS KILL KIDS: DID THE DEVIL MAKE THEM DO IT? Yes? Unidentified Man #3: I want to know, did the children know who their killers were? Like, were they frien--were the--did the children know their killers, so, like, they were friendly? RIVERA: Did Stevie lmow Jessie or Damian or--or the other fellow, Jason? Mr. HOBBS: Not to my lmowledge, he didn't. htt}i }l,llahan.8k.com/wm3/geraldo.html .. ,_/ , I G i " .. :. ,,·i~~~:!·.~·{·, : . '" t5/2009 --/ Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 22 of 122 RIVERA: Now as the case has been reconstructed, Paul, was there a stalking of these particular victims? Mr. MORRISON: In testimony, the mother of one of the victims told the court that a month or two prior to the killings, that a man dressed in black had taken a picture of her son. And then during the trial, it was still rather unc1--a little bit unclear, but it was--prosecution indicated that there had been a photograph, or photographs of the young boys and implied that there was some stalking going on. RIVERA: Are you there, Jim Taylor? Mr. TAYLOR: Yes, I am. RIVERA: From KAIT? Mr. TAYLOR: Yes, I am. RIVERA: Well, welcome. What's going on? Mr. TAYLOR: Today, more jury selection. Five people have been chosen so far. One man and four women. And they're looking for 12 people, plus two alternates. So 14 people have to be chosen. Five have been chosen and more jury selection this afternoon and tomorrow, I'm sure. RIVERA: What's the buzz about Jessie Jr. testifying against his two co-defendants? Mr. TAYLOR: If you--and just give you a moment of time, I can tell you that in Arkansas, the judge in this case appointed a separate attorney to meet with Jessie Jr. to explain what benefits Jessie could receive... (Photo of Jessie Misskelley Jr.) Mr. TAYLOR: (Voiceover) ...for his testimony. That attorney met with Jessie Jr. on Tuesday night, and I do know for a fact that Jessie Sr. was with Jessie Jr. whenever those discussions were taking place. There is lots of speculation as to what type ofyear amount Jessie Misskelley Jr. was offered in exchange for his testimony. But that's a question that I think Mr. Misskelley Sr. could answer, and that's something that a lot of people in our area would like to lmow. What was the year amount that Jessie Jr. was offered from the prosecution in exchange for his testimony? RIVERA: Let me ask Jessie Sr. They attempted, or are attempting, to make a deal with your son to testify against the other two boys who are accused of this triple homicide. How many years did they say they would take offhis life plus 40-year sentence, in exchange for testimony? httt ,.allahan.8kcom/wm3/geraldo.htmJ! i ,,:i ' \ ;' "-.../ ". :~/ i.:~ .~~ '.} :: '., is/2009 ....,~_/ Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 23 of 122 h ...... MISSKELLEY Sr.: Well, I don't think I should tell you all. 1 uon't think the lawyer would want me to say that. RIVERA: Is it a substantial reduction in his sentence? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr. : Yes, sir. RIVERA: So he would be out when?--by his middle adult years? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: That I don't know. RIVERA: You don't want to say?--a 20-year sentence? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: No, it's more than that. Mr. TAYLOR: Geraldo, I think--Geraldo, can you hear me? RIVERA: Yes. Go ahead, Jim. Mr. TAYLOR: I think Mr. Misskelley could give us more insight into what his son was thinking, because he was with his son when the decision process was going on. And we can get a better understanding of--of Jessie Misskelley Jr., the defendant, ifMr. Misskelley is allowed to elaborate on what they discussed the other night when the offer was made. RIVERA: You hear him, Dad? Why don't you tell us? What were they talking about? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: Well, they was talking about telling the truth. And that's what he said he was going to do, cause he was not... Mr. TAYLOR: Mr. Misskelley, if! may ask you, sir, is your son holding out for a better deal? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: No, he was not. He said that... Mr. TAYLOR: Do you think. .. Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: ...that... Mr. TAYLOR: Do you think your son will change his mind and testify? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: That I don't know. I know one thing. They asked him, up there, ifhe could walk out the door right now, would he get htt()tllahan.8k.coinlwrfi31geraldo .html ·1 ' ...---,/ "';:'~l?fJn( t5/2009 .. ~._/, Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 24 of 122 Up and testifY, and he said no. He said... Mr. TAYLOR: Why did he say no? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: He said, because he didn't want to get up there and tell a lie and... (Photo of Jessie Misskelley Jr.) Mr. MISSKELLEY Sf.: (Voiceover) ...send somebody to prison, death, if they weren't guilty. He said he don't know if they're guilty or not because he was not there. RIVERA: He still maintains he was not there? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: Yes, sir. RIVERA: But he's willing to testifY against the--I'm sorry, Grandpa Jackie? Mr. HICKS: It was proven in the trial that he was there... Mr. MORRISON: 1--1 think... Mr. HICKS: ...by his own testimony. Mr. MORRISON: ...that they--they--they convicted Jessie Misskelley... Mr. HICKS: That was a coerced testimony. Mr. MORRISON: ...convicted Jessie Misskelley Jr. based on one thing: that was the confession. There was no physical evidence--none... Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: No. Mr. MORRISON: .. .linking him to the crime scene in any way, shape or form. RIVERA: Well, what physical evidence existed? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: He was... httL jaHahan.8k.com/wm3/geraldo.html ......~.,' \~ ! ''.'0 :: ~; .. ':;r,:':'}:'~')!;~" ,,--...-)5/2009 Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 25 of 122 ··o------~ h ...... MORRISON: Very little. A number of hair fibers--that we know of; that--that the investigators will tell us--a few hair fibers and some microscopic clothing fibers. Mr. HICKS: Yeah, he... RIVERA: Jackie, do you have any doubt in your mind that the right guy has been convicted? Mr. HICKS: Yes, I think the right guy's been convicted. He's had--he had all of his testimony. He had any time to back out on what he was saying. And he didn't back out until it came up before trial, and now he wants to back out. His daddy wants to play him ignorant. And everybody else wants to play him ignorant, and he's not ignorant. A man that is not guilty will stand up. He'll stand up. He won't fall in for the police or nobody and confess guilty. Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: He's not a man, though. He's a seven- or eight-year-old kid. RIVERA: Is he retarded? Is that what Dad is saying here? Mr. MORRISON: He functions--he functions at an--at an IQ level of 72--an over all IQ. SO in a--in a legal sense, he is not retarded. Jessie Misskelley, though, it was apparent, is a--is a slow thinking teen-ager. RIVERA: Who is the ringleader allegedly? Mr. HICKS: Well, he can think fast enough to do and get out and do what he was doing down there at Mem--West Memphis; drinking his beer and carrying on with the other people. So, you know, it's just like Paul said, in the state of Arkansas, mental retardation starts at an IQ of 65. Seventy-two? We've all got some mental ability, you know? If you want to holler that, then I'm a little bit nuts, too. RIVERA: Me, too. (Applause) . RIVERA: We'll take a break. WHEN KIDS KILL KIDS: DID THE DEVIL MAKE THEM DO IT? Stay tuned. (Theme music and applause) (Announcements) (Theme music and applause) ,j'... httl\ >allahan.8k.comfwni3/geraldo.html· ,_/ u' .... : I"' -: (';;':' / '. :.'::.:'d',~.~,~J I, , ,;; t5/2009 : -."--.-/ Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 26 of 122 -~ VERA: DID THE DEVIL MAKE THEM DO iT? We're exallJ.Ll1ing a brutal, triple homicide. Three eight-year-olds hacked to ueath down in West Memphis, Arkansas. Yes, sir? . Unidentified Man #4: Yeah. I'd like to know, do you feel that your son may have been involved in this Satanic cult himself; because now kids are very impressionable and you never know? RIVERA: No. These kids were eight years old. There's no... Mr. HOBBS: Not a child. No. RIVERA: No, sir. Terry, do you want to say something about your son? Mr. HOBBS: Well, we had a--you know, an honor roll student, three years. We had an outstanding little boy. And he deserved better than this. RIVERA: Do you ever, Pam, second guess yourself, as so many survivors of murder--murdered children do? Oh, I shouldn't have let him out. Oh, I shouldn't have let him walk across town. Oh, I should have kept my eye on him?' Mrs..HOBBS: I blamed myself for awhile. RIVERA: Oh, you can't do that. You know that's... Mrs. HOBBS: Well, I did at first. I blamed myself because I let him go, but it's not my fault. I can't take the credit of saying that it's my fault. It's not my fault. Mr. MORRISON: These three kids did--did exactly what anyone of your children did that afternoon. They went out for a bike ride in their neighborhood and they never came back. RIVERA: Mm-hmm. Unidentified Woman #3: For the parents, do you think that justice was served? Do you think that this boy deserves the death sentence? Or what would you like to see happen to the one who was convicted? Mrs..HOBBS: I'm satisfied with the sentence--the sentence that he did get. And I don't want to--them to reduce it to get him to testify. I would rather them, the prosecution and all, to go with whatever information they do got without him. Unidentified Woman #4: We saw the perfect room of a teen-ager. I'm curious to know, there's got to be other signs of dysfunction that would httJ\,__)illahan.8k.comlwm3/geraldo.html o . ; ).(j-<!, ... ts/2009' ._/ Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 27 of 122 'O------~ '.-6ger someone in their mind to say this is someone who's very plJssible--could get involved in a Satanic cult. One of my--one ofmy more specific questions is dysfunction, meaning rebellion. You know, you had boundaries for your son. You knew where you sent him. He knew when he was to be back. But to Misskelley, did your son have boundaries and did he follow his boundaries? Do you know where your son was? RlVERA: Mr. Misskelley, was Jessie kind of a hell-raiser? Unidentified Woman #4 (Neighbor Of The Misskelleys): No. RlVERA: Jessie? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: No, he was--no, he was not a hell-raiser. Woman #4: I don't think they can hear me. RlVERA: Who else is speaking? Is that your wife sitting by you? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: No. It's a neighbor. RlVERA: OK. Hello, neighbor. Do you want to say something? Mr. MISSKELLEY Sr.: She's the one that baby-sit--Jessie baby-sit for. RlVERA: You let Jessie baby-sit your children? Woman #4: Yes, and I would today. RlVERA: Are you one of the people who claims you saw Jessie the night of the crime? Woman #4: I don't claim that I saw him, I know I saw him. RlVERA: Did you offer to testifY on his behalf? Woman #4: I did testify. RlVERA: Obviously, they didn't believe you. Why? , httt ",alliolhan;8k.com/wm3/geraldo.html .. . .:.. ', ,_/ .' ) "-.../ ',' '. , ·:.:.l:/~ ,'~ : \ ~~5/2009 '---./ Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 28 of 122 Woman #4: I don't know why they didn't believe me. I told them the truth and that was the truth. I seen him out here at 6:30 that evening and that's where he was at. RIVERA: OK. Terry, you want to comment on what she just said? Mr. TIOBBS: I heard a lot of testimony come up there for his defense, that was not convincing even to me. And I wasn't ajuror. RIVERA: Now go back to Paul Morrison there. I want to get to our Satanic experts and broaden this discussion, Paul, but what about what the young lady in the first row asked? What about evidence that Misskelley was in some other way, to use that much-bandied expression, dysfunctional? Mr. MORRISON: I think you--you could find that. As a matter of fact, his own clinical psychologist and several pretrial hearings said as much on--and this was his defense psychologist. And the other two, Damian and Jason, I think you'd find that they, too, come from what is the politically-eorrect term, a dysfunctional home, to one degree or another. But so do a lot ofteen-agers in this day and age. RIVERA: OK. Jack Levin? Mr. LEVIN: I think that's a good point. There are millions ofpeople who've had troubled childhood experiences, and they don't go out and commit these hideous acts. On the other side, I think that we--parents everywhere--have to know that their kids--their teen-age kids, especially--are being supervised. You know, it's--it's not that our--that television is responsible for everything. Because we're always blaming television. It's that our other institutions, our families, our religion, and our schools have become so weak. We've got to invest as much in our teen-agers as we now invest in the stock market. (Applause) RlVERA: Let me take a break on that note. Then I'm going to go to Marcos Quinones, the cop here in New York, ask him what the big-city reality is in this regard. Stay tuned. Be right back. (Theme music and applause) (Announcements) (Theme music and applause) •. ' htt~_./allahan.8k.c6mJ:win:3/geraldo.html . "~'1 -: . I ."-...../ .. " .;";' . " ;;5/2009 -,---./ Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 29 of 122 1'-0. J"ERA: Professor-Levin was talking about the decline and fallot American civilization with emphasis on family, church and scnool. But not all kids--I mean, some kids given the same opportunity, they do fine. Like little Stevie, one ofthe victims, Pam and Terry's boy. This is his homework from the day he was murdered. In math, he got 100. In cursive writing, he got a--a star. And in English, he got a Very Good.' And now he's dead, brutally murdered by--well, one 17-year-old already convicted, two others allegedly also responsible. I want to go to NYPD's Marcos Quinones. Is any of this relevant to big-city America? Is it relevant to New York? Office MARCOS QUINONES (Researcher Of Cu~t Crimes): Yes, I think it is. I think that many children, depending on the lifestyle they have at home and the fellowship with their parents, if they don't have that family structure, will look into something else. I think because of the lack of power that they have, they will tum to Satanism or some other form of the occult. There's so many things out there that will introduce' this kind ofphilosophy. The philosophy is out there. My condolence to the family over, you know, this situation. Fortunately, not--not all kids will, you know, kill or commit suicide with the exposure of Satanic material. But you get that one child out ofa thousand--all of a sudden, you have something like this. And I think it's very important for parents, teachers to be on top of these children, giving them what they need. I think the basic home life, the love--I think that's the answer to all of this. RIVERA: Are there more Satanic or ritual homicides here than we know about? Officer QUINONES: I think in looking at some cases, a lot of it is labeled as Satanism. I don't think every mutilation crime is a Satanic crime. I think we have to separate fact from fiction. But you get a case like this, and it's my own personal opinion--I think there's an element here. I don't know, Paul, if in your investigation you feel that there are adults involved in this. That--you know, you just don't kill someone or three individuals like this. The training that it took for these people to do this... Mr. MORRISON: Not only that, but how do three teen-agers, one of them admittedly slow, no matter how diabolically clever, so thoroughly sanitize the crime scene, and the time--and do all ofthe--all ofthe--made all ofthe injuries, committed the crimes and basically, be back home in three hours? To the point there's not one drop of--excuse me--there was some microscopic drops of blood ruled inadmissible. No blood at the crime scene. RIVERA: How about the semen samples? Mr. MORRISON: Well, the semen sample--they--a DNA specialist out of Greensboro, North Carolina, did testifY that he found what appeared to be semen on one of the young bo--victim's pants, but there was not enough of that material for a proper test to get any match. Questions. RIVERA: Dr. Nieburg, overview on this? Dr. NIEBURG: 1--1 think it's a very perplexing case. I think it's clear that there--there was a--there was a murder perpetrated. I think we--we have not heard enough about the backgrounds, as--as Jack Levin had said. I'm--I'm convinced that if one does what's known as a hft1\. .allahim~8k.comlwni3igeraldo.html ~) i :;.;r~ \----/15/2009; Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 30 of 122 p;:;ychological autopsy; if we really go back--and I think Paul is really doing that, as--as a result of his chronicling and his record-keeping-­ things are going to come out; and especially after the trial. There's an awful lot sealed here that we don't know about. And... RIVERA: What about the larger question of is there an epidemic of ritual cwi--crime?--violence? Dr. NIEBURG: There's not an epidemic. There are more cases reported, it's out in the open. We're educating people. As a matter of fact, one of the things I really wanted to share with both ofyou is, if there's anything that would--and I don't mean the word justify' in its--in its real sense--the fact that you are here, the three of you, to educate other people to what this is about, in--in one sense says that you're doing your part to help this heal. Mr. HICKS: Definitely. That's exactly right. RIVERA: We'll be right back. (Theme music and applause) (Announcements) (Theme music and applause) RIVERA: Professor Levin, do you have a 30-second bit of wisdom for us? Mr. LEVIN: Well, you know, we've already said make sure you know where your kids are. But I would say, make sure you know who your kids' friends are. Mr. MORRISON: Make sure you know what they're reading, too. Mr. HICKS: Yeah. (Applause) Mr. LEVIN: And make sure that you know what they're seeing in every day life, because we don't want to let the peer groups fill the void in our children's lives, that ought to be filled by our traditional institutions. (Credits roll) RIVERA: Jackie, do you want to say something? .htt1\. ,allahari:8k.com/wm3/geraldo.htrril ' " . /;.J :,\ " . ::';" .;,/', . ... ~ ... ;,; o',,,JS/2009 Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 31 of 122 Mr. HICKS: Yes, I would. I'd like to say that the only reason that I come to New York to be on this show, I'm--don't want my little grandson's death to go in vain. I don't want to be critical, but I want to very, very much make a plea to all the mothers, fathers, grandmas, granddaddies: please love your children. Believe it. Get your heads' out of the sand. It's real. Love them, respect them, show them your love. RIVERA: DID THE DEVIL MAKE THEM DO IT? We'll keep you updated on this. Thanks for watching, folks. Bye-bye. (Theme music and applause) . ,". htti,· )allahan.8k.com/wm3/geraldo.html ~. u .; '. ;:, .:' ··s~ j. '·,_YS/2009 . Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 32 of 122 ; Pam and Terry Hobbs Interview (1 of 2) [Beginning of recorded material) Interviewer: [Unintelligible] recording? Pam and Terry Hobbs Interview (1 of2) Interviewer: Yeah. I just got to do this. [Unintelligible] right this way. [Where's] the mic? I1lleave [unintelligible]. Interviewer: I was thinking this might be a good"thing. Maybe even ifyou don't mind just starting over, just -- >')~)1; Interviewer: Starting over this - Interviewer: Yeah. Just because I want- Interviewer: [Crosstalk] afternoon [crossta1k] -- Tigerfislt Interviewer: _: because one ofthe things -- because again, one ofthe things I want Transcribing-Editing to make sure tbat we do, what we are intending to do is the-the whole 203 Columbus Avenue' San Francisco 94133 thing you and I talked about as far as showing-showing - making toll-free 877-TJOERFISH Stevie a person. I want to see him at school. I want to see him come www.tlgerfuh.com home. I want to see him with his mom. You know, 1want this person to be a person. And so .- -- Interviewer: And what's great about this -- [') m Interviewer: - specific details of-ofthat are really-really good. llove the Elvis )( :r: story. I think there's a good chance that's going in the movie. -OJ :::j Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 33 of 122 Interviewer: Interviewer: Interviewer: Interviewer: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Terry Hobbs: Pam Hobbs: Pam and Terry Hobb. Interview (I 0(2) Page 2 And wbat's great about this is -- And-and the conversation about Mik~ buying the Elvis lamp. This bas -- this bas all -- this has the three kids in it. This is just [crosstalk]. And this is all three of them. This might be a useful way for partly to frame all that. I love that. I love that. Okay. So, pick him up the 2:45. Yeah, at school. At school. And then we walk home. And ofcourse on the way home, Stevie told me - probably a million times; I didn't count them - "They love me." I'd say around 3:00 or 5:00 is when Michael arrived, because school got out around 3:00 or so, and we lived so close. Michael came over, and Stevie would get into the [car fort] [unintelligible] by the time Michael got there, and Michael asked ifStevie could come over to his house. And I told him, "No, not today. I'm getting ready for work. I'm cooking supper and all that." And Stevie and Mike were both begging, "Please, please! I'll be back!" And I said, "Boy, ifyou're not back home by 4:30, you're grounded two weeks [unintelligible]." Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Terry Hobbs: Pam Hobbs: [Laughter] Pam and Terry Hob\>! Interview (1 0(2) Poge3 And so, Stevie and Michael left just as happy as they could be. I thought Michael had a watch on, because he told me as they rolled off, he said, "My mom's not home yet, but she11 be home in five minutes, I promise." Well, I wouldn't think five minutes had passed by the time Christopher was knocking on the door. And he asked about Stevie a lot, and I told him, "Well, you just missed him. They just left to go to Michael's house." And he said, "Well, can I come in and see Amanda for a little bit?" And I said, "Yeah, that'd be fine." So, they sat in the den and watched the Muppet Babies, and when the Muppet Babies went offhe left. So•.. How much older - or Amanda was a little younger, right? She waS 4. Four. So, he had a little crush on-on Amanda? Yeah. Four years older. Melissa had told me that after they were murdered, that, urn, Christopher came home one day and said, "[I'm going to bave a] girlfriend." And she said, "Uh, wbo?" And he said, "Yeah, but she's younger than me." And she said, "Well, how old is sbe?" And he told her, "She's 4, and she's [who is she?] Stevie's sister [Amanda]." Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 34 of 122 Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Pam Hobbs: Pam aDd Terry HDbbs Intervle" (1 o(2) Pnge4 Dat-dating a WOman half his age already. Mm-hmm. It's-it's like in Hollywood or something. And Stevie was, uh -- [always hitching up a date] with Michael Moore's sister, Dawn. And she was older. I think I remember-remember hearing that, because Stevie was - he was ambitious in the older women. Yep. And, uh - and Chris had the younger - that's [crosstalk]. [Crosstalk] hung out with Mike, or Chris come over and I got him [not wanting toJkiss Amanda. And he was just [over-abused] in that day. And, uh, he'd come in, and I asked Terryifhe could tell Amanda, "Bye." And Terry said, "Well, tell her bye," and Christopher shyly put his hands in his Pocket and told her, "Bye," which Stevie was out on the car fort laughing, because he knew Christopher wanted her to come out there so he could give her a kiss bye. And Terry [got him], "Tell her bye now." Terry Hobbs: [Laugher] Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam aDd Terry HDbbs Intervle" (1 ofZ) PageS I said, "You tell her in here, boy." Who was -- who was Stevie better friends with, Christopher or Michael? Michael. Yeah. They were - were they like best friends, the two of them? Yeah. They were - they did everything together. But they hung out with Chris quite a bit? Uh, Chris and Stevie were in the same [group]. So, I would say probably, uh, about a month before the murder was when Chris really started hanging around them both. Okay. What would you think of- I mean, uh, of Mike and-and Chris, particularly -- just-just in your encounters with them, with the boys? [As the boys]? Yeah, just [unintelligible]. Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 35 of 122 Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs; Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer; Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam and Terry Hobbs Intervlew (I ofZ) P8ge6 [Unintelligible]. Uh, Michael was over one day, and he had a little play badge, and he told me he as an undercover drug agent. And I said, "Boy, you going to get them" -- A little -- a little sheriffs badge [unintelligible]. I said, "Boy, you going to go get them bad boys, ain't you?" He said, "Yeah,1I Yeah. What about Chris? Michael spent more time -- Chris, uh, he was just a little shy little boy then. Started coming over right before they died. Yeah. He didn't spend as much time there as Michael did. He was more quiet and -- Yeah, qniet. Had you guys -- had you all known the Moores before that, or did you kind ofjust get to know them when their kids started hanging out? [Unintelligible]. Vb, really? So, you hadn't even met them, [unintelligible] parents? Terry Hobbs: Pam Hobbs: Terry Hobbs: [Crosstalk] Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Interviewer; Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Interviewer: Pam and Terry HobbaIntervtew (I ofZ) Page? [Unintelligible] Todd-- We knew the Moores. -- Todd was [crosstalk]. Right, right, right, right. We met Mark Byers [unintelligible]. Right. So, all you - the only way you -- you didn't know them directly at all, but their boy, because of being in the neighborhood, would just come over -- he had just started kind of coming over as sort ofhanging out with your son, and with -- and with Mike? Yeah. And you knew they were in the troop, or you knew they knew each other from school. And so, let's talk -- let's talk about what-what-what you remember from the night, from the time you went to tell Pam that he was still missing. Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 36 of 122 Interviewer: Interviewer: Interviewer: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Pam Hobbs: Terry Hobbs: Pam Hobbs: Porn ond Terry Hobbs Interview (I 0(2) Page 8 Or do you want to start from where we stopped her, and just kind of take it on through? Yeah, sure. That's fine. You said around 3:05, or wlult was it, that they took off, right? Well, they were left here. Steve •• ub, Chris left. Yeah, but they were .- CJ;uis left-- [Unintelligible] -.' •. almost around 4:00. Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Pam ond Terry Hobb.lntervlew (1012) Poge9 Yeah. Terry had .come home, 00, a little bit after 4:00, and the first thing he asked was, "W4ere's Frog Leg?" That was Stevie's nickname. And I said, "He went [unintelligible] .- or rode bikes with, uh, Mike boy. He'll be - I guess that's - is that because of the way he looked, or [crosstalk]? [Crosstalk]. Frog-Frog Leg? Tell, tell. Yeah. We was living up in Indiana. My dad had a re - a chain of restaurants - we had 32 restaurants. Okay, one -- had [some up in] Indiana. The one I refer to has a big lake to have a swim, and have a good time. Right in the middle ofthis lake waS a -- something like this out there floating around, where you could climb up on it and dive off. Uh, 80-foot -- there's signs posted out·there, 80-foot beach [unintelligible]. We all get out there to that, and climb up on there. Pam's still on her way, swimming out there to it. Terry Hobbs: •• [about] 4:00, because after the show ended. Interviewer: Right. Pam Hobbs: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: The Muppet Babies come on at 3:30, and [they're off] at 4:00. Right.. And you had •• then they weren't back by 4:30? Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: And me and Stevie's already up there on top of it. And he bails offin there, not knowing how to swim. Ohman. Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 37 of 122 Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: terry Hobbs: Pam nnd Terry Hobb. Interview (1 ofZ) Page 10 And boy, immediately I go in to get him. But when I go down to get him, he just looking like a frog. [Laughs] [Crosstalk] kicking his legs and arms, trying to go up. He wasn't going down. That's [unintelligible]. I used to teach [unintelligible] by throwing them in the water, because they'll-they'll do it naturally. I put my band on his butt, just, you know, brought him up. Brought him up, yeah. I love that. They call him "Frog Leg" ever. since then. Yeah. That's fantastic. So, so you came home. She was getting ready for work, right, I guess? Yeah. And you came home, and you guys were like worried? I asked her, "Where's Stevie at?" Because Amanda was there, and she said, "He's off riding his bicycle. He'll be home at 4:30." I waik out the Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam nnd Terry Hobbs Inlervlew (IoU) Page Il driveway and look, you know, closerit gets to 4:30, to see if! can see him coming down the road, because I had to take her to work by 5:00. Yeah. And then -- and then [crosstalk)?· We left about 4:45, so we could go by the Moores to see if Stevie was there, and tell him he was grounded. But, you know, they wasn't there. And I went [crosstalk) -- So, is that [while] you were -- as-as soon as it was 4:30, you were, upset -- Yeah. -- you were mad that he wasn't there? [Crosstalk) wasn't home. [Not] mad. Well, I mean [unintelligible]. Not really thinking that anybody [unintelligible]. That's valid. Just thinking he just missed his -- Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 38 of 122 Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Interviewer: ParnHobbs: Interviewer: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Pam and Terry Hobbs Interview (1012) Pogel2 [Crosstalk]. So at that point, you're going on to work, and you just feel like, "Okay, he-he stayed out too long. I told him." So, from 4:45 - what time did you have to start work? At 5:00. At 5:00, okay. So, you took her on to work after you guys checked with the Moores. There had been -- nobody had heard anything from him, and the Moores weren't worried either, right? They just knew that these boys were staying out [crosstalk]. Todd was out of town. He's a truck driver. Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: . Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Porn "od Terry Hobbs Interview (IoU) Poge 13 her. Then Dana comes over to our house and says, "You seen Michael?" I say, "No, he was supposed to be at your house." She went­ went back to her house, and kind ofpatrolled the neighborhood, and that's where I met Mark Byers, when I went to her house. He carne across the street and asking ifwe'd seen Christopher. And we said, IlNo" __ Is it - is it 4:00 - about 4:00 - about 5:00 [crosstalk], so 5:30, 5:I5? Something in there. Okay. And that's the first time you've laid eyes on him actually, right? In my life. Yeah. He's like, "I'm Mark Byers" -- Interviewer: Hm. Terry Hobbs: Big old boy. Terry Hobbs: And Dana's not home. Interviewer: -- Chris' dad. llive up the street Have you seen - Interviewer: Okay. Terry Hobbs: He lived right across the street from the Moores. Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: And she's thinking [crosstalkl-- [Unmtelligible]. I took her to work. I go back to my house. You know, me and Amanda ride through the neighborhood to see ifwe could see Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Right. Mm-hmm. [Unintelligible]. Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 39 of 122 Interviewer:· Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: [Crosstalk] Pam and Terry Hob!>! Interview (I o(2) Page 14 And so, you guys had actually just driven by the Moores just to see if they were there, and you took her on to work. You went back to the Moores •• or Dana Moore came over. Well? I went back to the neighborhood, iooking around [crosstalk]. Yeah. By yourself] Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Pam and Terry Hobbs Interview (I of2) Pogo IS Well, we hadn't heard from them. They leave our house to go to her house. Ycab. And then Mark Byers walked over. That's when Mark came walking across, asking about Chris. So, what happened then? We figured out they might be together. Interviewer: Ycab. Interviewer: He - so, Mark Byers came to your ·house? Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: So, this would've been at 5:15 or so. Right? Interviewer: Interviewer: No, he came across the street to - Came to Dana's house, [because they were out] at 6:00. Interviewer: Ycab. Pam Hobbs: [Unintelligible]. Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: And we end up back at our house. Then Dana shows up at our house •• Okay. - and asks about Mike. And then while you guys are kind ofwalking and looking around, you run into Mark Byers? Had you guys started [crosstalk]? Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Interviewer: Interviewer: That Was between 5:00 and 6:00. All right, I missed something. So, how did you end up at Dana's house? They went over there after driving around. Uh, you drove around, ilien went back to Dana's house, and then Mark came over and it was about 6:00? i Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 40 of 122 Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: , Pam Bnd'Terry Hobbs Interview (1 of 2) , Poge 16 Somewhere in there. Somewhere in there, [unintelligible). Okay. And then - and then Dana said -- Didn't Dana -- didn't Dana testify that she saw him around 6:00? I think [someone did). Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Pam and Terry Hobbs Interview (l 011.) Page J7 No. We were - there's paperwork over there saying that I called them between 5:00 and 5:30, I believe, and -- to report kids missing - our kid's missing. After Chris had -- after Mark Byers had walked over, do you think, or­ or before? I think before. Terry Hobbs: Yeah. Pam Hobbs: Terry Hobbs: Pam Hobbs: Terry Hobbs: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Pam Hobbs: [Crosstalk]. [Crosstalk). That's right. [Crosstalk). [Crosstalk) that's right. [Crosstalk] -- yeah. [Crosstalk] go into a wooded area. So, why do you think, urn - why do you think at that point that Stevie didn't come home? Like -- I mean, ifthey were out, [unintelligible) obviously [unintelligible] the neighborhood around 5:30. J called the police to make a report about 5:30. I thought you made the report at [9:00) [unintelligible]? Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: But it Was right in that timeframe. You know, basically once Dana Moore came over, said, IIHave you seenfl -- you know, "I'm concerned," and you guys went back to the Moores' house, and you were kind oftogether thinking, "Okay, both ofour kids are gone. They're both late. We're a little worried now." Then Mark Byers walks over, says, "I'm Mark Byers. I'm Chris' dad. Have you seen him?" Then the three ofyou guys figure these - the kids may be all together. So, somewhere in that time you were getting concerned enough that you calIed the police and said, "Hey, we've been looking for our boys. We can't find them. Can you guys start [unintelligible)?" And the answer the police told me -- "Don't worry about it. They're over at someone's house playing. They'll be home." Because it was so soon after they -- Right. Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 41 of 122 Interviewer: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Pam and Terry Hobb.. Interview (1 of2) Page 18 So, you were starting to just get that slight sense of, "I'm a little worried, ' Because [unintelligible]. [Crosstalk] [or not]. No? He did want to help, kind of, like [crosstalk].. And had-had Stevie ever done that before, just not come home on-on time? It was unusual enough that you felt like -- Right. •• something needs to be done, And what happened from that point [unintelligible]? We was told, "Don't worry about it. They'll be home." Well, as parents, you know, we •• the Byers, Mark and Melissa, go out and ride around [unintelligible]. And me and Amanda go ride around [unintelligible). And Dana stays at her house, in case they come home Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam aDd Terry Hobin Interview (1 orl) Pogo 19 Right. -- to her house. Well, we never did run across nobody. I mean nothing, no boys. That's what we was looking for. I take Amanda over to a friend ofours that lived over by us, and pick her husband up, and leave Amanda there, and tell him, I sDid, "I can't find Steve." He knew Stevie [unintelligible]. So, me and him spent the rest ofthe evening-­ he-he stayed with me. Who's he? David [Unintelligible]. He was just a friend who had a daughter [crosstalk]. [Crosstalk]. And his daughter, you said, was a friend of [the family]? Right. But me and him worked together [over in Memphis]. Vh, we rolled around, and I got him with me. And we went everywhe~ we could think ofto look. You know? And didn't know where to look. [Did you go] near or into the woods at that point [unintelligible]? No, not then. Was that a place that they played in a lot, or did you not [unintelligible]? Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 42 of 122 Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Pam Hobbs: Terry Hobbs: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam and Terry Hobbs Interview (I of2) Pago20 It was a place where kids had played and did thIngs, like there's a [unintelligible] - [Unintelligible] kids would get up in there somehow and just run around and play? [But they·they] didn't know where he was at. [Unintelligible]. [Crosstalk] definitely didn't know it as a place where he'd go play. That's rigbt, yeah. The first time [crosstalk] •• [Crosstalk]. •• Stevie, you're not in here. That's •• so, you had just heard about it, and you go there and •• you didn't know kids go in there personally, they would go in. Right. You just heard that maybe kids - Did you •• had you also heard anythil,lg about it being like a place not to be after dark, like maybe transients being there, anything else about it? Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam and Terry Hobbs IntervJew (1012) Pogo 21 Not at that time. Okay. But we did later. Yeah. So, at the time [unintelligible]. [Unintelligible] we would go up and ask, "Have you seen three boys?" And every - a lot of the kids were saying, "Yeah, we seen three boys go into Robin Hood Hills." I didn't know where Robin Hood Hills was, as far as they called it. But yeah, the more the people we asked, you know, some ofthem kept saying, "Yeah, they [went there]." You were •• so, you ran into a couple ofpeople who said they actually - they saw them go in there? Right. So, at what point did you - so, so you're still riding around at this point, haven't seen them •. separately·· it's you riding around with your friend .• David. - in your car. And, uh, assume the Byers •• you're not in touch with them, but you assume they're out looking, because [crosstalk]- Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 43 of 122 Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Interviewer: Pam and Terry Hobbs Intorvlow (1 of2) Pago22 Well, we had seen them. -- around. Are they walking or driving? Driving. And then, uh -- and Dana Moore's still at home? Right. And then what happened? And were any of the people that told you that they saw -- they saw them go into the woods, were they people you knew? Interviewer: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Porn ond Terry Hobbs Intervlow (IoU) Pag023 Yeah, yeah. And you were getting away from your little group of the rew people you knew right around there. You're just starting to ask strangers, but you just [unintelligible]. .The police -- the police had at one point told us, "Go door-to-door and ask." So, a lot ofus was doing that. You know, people we didn~ even know, there was starting to get -- be a gathering. So, people were starting to get the word that some-some of our neighbors we don't even know, three ofthe boys are gone. And some people are starting to come out, and then they're asking their neighbors, and it's becoming a-- Terry Hobbs: No. Pam Hobbs: That actually -- Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Yeah. You just - you were just asking people [unintelligible]. Right. Door-to-door, [unintelligible]. Uh, really? So, it was -- you were getting that -- Terry Hobbs: Pam Hobbs: Neighbors [crosmalk]. - didn't happen until the next day. Terry Hobbs: Starting to - Interviewer: Okay. Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Starting to get -- Starting to want to know something. Pam Hobbs: People going door-to-door and stuff. Urn, a police officer came to [Catfish Island] where I worked, and took a report, went out to the wooded area [with us] -- and I think [Gina Baker] was there. And Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 44 of 122 Intefviewer: Terry Hobbs: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Terry Hobbs: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Porn aDd Terry Hobb. Interview (loll) Pagel4 those were the last two poliee offieers I seen all night. They might be it. Okay. And we-we was going down to the poliee station. [Crosstalk]. [Crosstalk], and all that. And they told us, "We have every available man on the force out there looking." Well, Terry was riding around with David, and my daddy came down to help join the search too. But at one point I found myself -- and I was speeding through Broadway in West Memphis, and there wasn't a eop to stop me. I didn't see a cop nowhere. And this was all, though, much later that [night]? This is after [crosstalk]. Yeah, later on. [Crosstalk] after 9:00. Mm-hmm. So, leading up to 9:00 then still, just to get that sense of your first experience ofit, you were still driving around? People actually [unintelligible], but you were going door-tn-door-- Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam and Terry Robb. Interview (loll) Page2S Before dark. And right at dark before Pam came, I picked her up from work. There was a •• there was, uh, boys on four-wheelers, three­ wheelers, riding. And everybody kept pointing to Robin Hood, and there was people actually going out in Robin Hood looking to see if .they was out there. Okay. So, it had started·· some local _. some people in the - in the neighborhood had started thinking they could be there, and [crosstalk]. What time were you -- what time were you •• were you supposed to work until? Until 9:00? Until 9:00. Until 9:00. Ycab, okay. And then - and that's why you went there at 9:00, because you knew it was time for her to get off. Right. And when you picked her up, nobody had talked to you yet, right? [Crosstalk]. You were at work. So, basically you had gone to work knowing that Stevie was late in coming home. Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 45 of 122 Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam and Terry Hobbs Interview (1 of2) Page 26 Yes. And then he came and picked you up, and that's where it's like -- you said, "Did Stevie ever come home?" or whatever, and you said you had the pieces of candy -- [Crosstalk] went to the car and -- -- you said you-you had two pieces ofcandy in your hand for them, for-for your kids. -- [crosstalk] for Amanda -- And so, you went - you hended out to the car expecting to see both of them. Mm-hmm. Because they usually come all to pick you up together. Mm-hmm. And then what exactly did you say, ifyou remember? She asked me where Steve was. I said, "We haven't fotuld him yet." And that's when you said, "He's dead"? Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Pam and Terry Hobbs Interview (1 of2) Page 27 She said it [first thing]. Is that -- that was the first thing? You just -- your first response was- [Crosstalk]. - "He's dead ll? When I called my sister at work to tell her Stevie was missing, that's the first thing I said to her too. I said, "He's dead." I said, "I'll never see him alive again." And she's, "Dh God, Pam, don't say that. He's going to be okay. We're going to find him," but [crosstalk] Stevie [unintelligible]. I knew -- Did you start [to get] frantic [unintelligible] inside? And when I didn't see him - when I didn't see him in the car, I [unintelligible], because Stevie wasn't that type of child. You just knew? [Unintelligible]. And so from that point, for you, the night was-was just sort of this in­ inside, frantic fear, [unintelligible]-- [Crosstalk]. Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 46 of 122 Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Pam and Terry Hobbs IntervIew (1 of!) Pago 28 -- stress, driving fast, trying to -- Praying to God that you're wrong. Interviewer: That's all that night. Pam and Terry Hobbslntervle", (I or2) Poge29 Terry Hobbs: Yeah. Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: "God, please don't let this be so," but kind ofknowing in my heart that [that's] really what happened. And meanwhile, you had [set offto] keep looking [or whatever]? Interviewer: So, different people are'saying -- they literally are saying, "I saw three kids, uh, getting in that ice cream van." Terry Hobbs: [Crosstalk] around dark. Terry Hobbs: Yeah. Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: And just trying to be calm, trying to keep her calm as you're feeling scared yourself inside? Yeah. [Unintelligible] the closer to dark it got, I mean, they were-­ they -- he's scared ofdark. You knew that was bad. At that point, at least you're thinking -- are you thinking maybe he's had an accident, something like that? Or are you thinking maybe, even that early, that someone had done something to him? Whatever we-we-we hear -- we heard so many things. You know, we heard that they was over there at the laundromat, so we ran over there te the laundromat to see ifthey were in there. We heard somebody put them in a van. You remember that? We heard somebody put them in an ice cream van. Interviewer: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Pam Hobbs: Terry Hobbs: Somebody else says, "I saw three boys over at the laundromat." Somebody says -- what-what-what -- somebody said they were put in an ice cream van? A van. Was it - okay. Well, it could've been any van, not necessarily an ice cream Van. And that lawyer that they brought from California -- what was his narne? Chris [Unintelligible]. He lived here in West M.emphis, and somehow he ended up i~ California. They broUght him back to West Memphis t~ question him, because, uh - because he drove an ice cream van. Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 47 of 122 Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam nnd Terry Hobbs Interview (1 of2) Page 30 So that night, all you heard was a white van, white or yellow? [Unintelligibie] found out it was an ice cream van. Yeah. And I worked for an ice cream coml?any at the time. [Unintelligible], yeah. So, I had some ofmy customers tell me, "You did it!" Yeah. Who was it -- do you remember who it was that said that they saw them get in the van? Just neighborhood people. Just neighborhood people? And was it -- did they say "van," or did they say "ice cream van?" Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Pam Hobbs: Terry Hobbs: Pam and Terry Hobbs Interview (1 0(2) Page 31 And then somebody else said - I think how - I mean, did they sound certain when they were telling you this stuff, or would they be like, "I think maybe I saw some boys over at the laundromat"? I mean -- We did -- we went over to the laundromat and checked. Mm-hmm. The official statements are pretty solid that people saw them go into the woods. That's the last time they were seen. There was somebody watching a show that was on about 6:00 [crosstalk] -- [Crosstalk] the news. Yeah. And they-they said, "Yeah, we live here in the woods over-­ and see them going in there." Terry Hobbs: Van. Interviewer: All right Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Just van? . A white van. A white van. Interviewer: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Was that -. do you happen to know ifthose folks that said that - and they're watching the news, so that's how they knew the time? Roughiy it would've been·· was it 5:30 evening news, between 5:30 and 6:00? Or was it the 6:00? [Unintelligible] 6:00. Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 48 of 122 Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Pam Hobbs: . Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam and Terry Hobbs Interview (I o(2) Poge 32 [Unintelligible]. Was that over by the pipe, that place? Or was that over at a different part? Do you remember the pe9ple that you're talking - that you talked to, where they said -- and they said they saw them going in. Like going on into the woods, three-three boys. Wouldn't it be by the apartments? Mm-hmm. By the Mayfair Apartments? By Mayfair. Yeah. It's over on the end where the pipe is. Mm-hmm. Interviewer: Interviewer: Interviewer: Interviewer: Interviewer: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer; Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam ond Terry Hobbs Interview (I ofl) Page 33 The rest of the night. -- you keep on -- you keep looking-Jooking then. What do you remember about that period ofjust the search? You searched all night Yeah. Like it was like, and what-what was happening. I've heard that there were tons ofpeople. I-I -- yeah, it's one of those things I haven't heard very much. There's not much to-to find in terms ofdocumentation about -- Right. -- what actually went on that night. Because there was no police. And-and were you - how angry were you about that? Very! We had made-- Imeljll-- IntefViewer: Yeah. Terry Hobbs: -- two or three trips down to the police station that night. Interviewer: Interviewer: That's where they found the bicycles too. That's right. Okay. So, anyway, IUD, so -- Interviewer: Where were the cops? Where were they? Still don't know? Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 49 of 122 Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Pam Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Pam and Terry Hnbbs Interview (1 0(2) Page 34 They told us to go home, don't worry about it; they'll be home (to sleep]. Okay. I told them one time, I said, "He's 8 years old. He sleeps with a nightlight in his room. He did not run away from home." So. And they just -- they just were not -- They didn't give you any reason why they thought these boys might -­ they might have run away, like maybe they thought one of the kids had done that, or anything, or? Because you're saying - Stevie's-Stevie's not a runaway. You said, you know, "We know he's"-- We didn't know if the other two had done it at the time, but we found out some things about them after the fact. Mm-hmm. Like what? Well, didn't someone tell us that they broke into school? Mm-hmm. Who broke into school? Michael Moore. Pam Hobbs: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer; Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Interviewer: Terry Hobbs: Pam and Terry Hobbs interview (1 orZ) Pago 35 Michael Moore. And Chris. I've never heard that. And we-we heard it. We don't know if it's true. Right. And we'd heard some things about, you know, Chris [may have] some problems. So, so I wonder -- did you get any sense that the police acted like they knew somethIng about some ofthese other boys that made them more inclined to believe that they might have run offor something like that, or they - The police made you believe like they didn't care. That's when [crosstalk]? (Crosstalk] show up. Mark Byers had called Search and Rescue in Crittenden County. Yeah. Crittenden County told Mark that, "We can't come to West Memphis until the police invite us." And they wouldn't (do]. Case 4:09-cv-00008-BSM Document 38-9 Filed 08/21/2009 Page 50 of 122